Minutes   JTC1/SC22/WG15 N756r
ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22/WG15- POSIX   1997 Oct 20

Plenary meeting
Date: Oct. 20-22, 1997
Location: Nav Canada (formerly Transport Canada) Training Inst.;
1950 Montreal Road; Cornwall, Ontario - Canada
+1 613-936-5001 fax: +1 613-936-5010
Host Contact: David Blackwood dave@rc.gc.ca
Chair: David Blackwood
Vice Chair: Lowell Johnson Secretary: David Blackwood
Convenor: Jim Isaak USA +1 508-264-7678 j.isaak@computer.org
WG15 Secretariat: Gloria Maille USA +1 508-264-7681 maille@ljo.dec.com
Agenda ad hoc Oct 20 9:30-10:30 AM  
National Profile Meeting Oct 23 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM  
WG15 Plenary meeting: Oct 20-22 Starting at 10:30 AM on 20th
    Ending by 17:00 on 22nd

1. Opening of meeting

David Blackwood opened the agenda ad-hoc meeting at 09:30 on October 20, 1997.

1.1 Welcome from Host

David Blackwood welcomed the delegates to the meeting on behalf of the Standards Council of Canada.

1.2 Introductions & Roll call of Technical Experts

Alain LaBonté, Canada, HoD
Herman Weegenaar, Netherlands, HoD
Lowell Johnson, U.S., ViceChair
Roger Martin, U.S., HoD
Jim Oblinger, U.S.
Jim Isaak, Convener
Don Folland, U.K., HoD
Keld Simonsen, Denmark, HoD
David Blackwood, Canada, Chair and Secretary

[ Nobuo Saito, Japan, HoD joined the meeting on Wednesday, October 22, 1997.]

1.2.1 Verification of HoD-PASC distribution

The Convener reviewed the HoD-PASC distribution and made corrections as required.

1.3 Selection of Drafting Committee

The following delegates volunteered to form the resolutions drafting committee:

Jim Oblinger, U.S.
Don Folland, U.K.
Keld Simonsen, Denmark

1.4 Adoption of agenda [N735r2]

The agenda was adopted as revised in N735r3.

1.5 Approval of minutes [N734; wg15 1054/1052]

The minutes of the previous meeting were adopted as revised in email SC22WG15.1054.

1.6 Action Items & National Reports

CA [N742]
DK [N745]
JP [N739]
NL [N740]
UK [N738]
US [N741]
Convener [N744]

The action items from the May 1997 meeting were reviewed:

CLOSED - It has been extended for one year.

New action items arising from the review of the action items:

Keld Simonsen to forward document WG14 N780 to U.S. development body (1003.2) (9705-22)

WG20 Liaison to contact U.S. development body with regard to the use of extended identifiers in POSIX small languages and to clarify the issues in WG15 N741, the U.S. response to action item 9705-27.

Convener to forward the latest revision of WG15 SD-6 to Keld Simonsen, WG15 webmaster, to replace the existing document on the protected web pages at dkuug.dk. (9705-30)

U.S. to forward comments received in action item reports to U.S. development body. (9705-33)

Re: 9705-41 Canada and Denmark would like to see this work item progress but neither can commit the resources to do so at this time.

Canada and Denmark to investigate whether resources can be committed to further this project.

Convener to confirm that the 1387.1 project has not been withdrawn by SC22.

U.S. to verify the titles of .1d and .1j real time extension documents.

2. Status, Liaison and Action Item Reports [written please]

2.1 Issues List [SD3] ViceChair

Issue 2: Pending completion of action item 9705-06.

Issue 3: No change

Issue 7: No change

Issue 8: Keld Simonsen presented additional information on work being done in this area by WG14 and WG20.

Issue 9: No change

Issue 10: No change

2.2 JTC1 actions affecting group

No substantive JTC1 actions affecting the group.

2.3 SC22 action, Convenor Report [N744]

SC22 approved all WG15 actions requested of them. Two problems have arisen. Michael Gonzales, Spain has been confirmed as Project Editor however Spain is not an SC22 participant. Also records of resolution cannot be balloted from web page references but must be circulated as printed documents.

2.4 Report on IEEE PASC Standards Projects [SD11]

SD11 updated October 9, 1997.

2.5 Liaison & Working Relationship Reports:

2.5.1 WG9/Ada--- RRG Action/Status [e1098/1099]

Report received from Ted Baker in email SC22WG15.1098.

2.5.2 WG11/Cross Language

Paul Rabin is no longer able to continue as WG11 Liaison.

Action item on the Netherlands to ask Willem Wakker to be the WG11 Liaison.

2.5.3 WG20/I18n [N747]

Keld summarised his summary in WG15 N747. Details are found at http://www.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/WG20/.

Action item on Convener to respond to request re: i18n API's that WG15 does not do programming languages but might use them in profiling.

2.5.4 WG21/C++

Nothing special to report - a draft has been submitted but has not yet been approved.

2.5.5 SGFS [WG15 1070]

Convener summarised email SC22WG15.1070. This agenda item to be removed. SGFS now longer exists.

2.5.6 WG22/PCTE [N749]

Keld summarised report WG15 N749 - WG22/PCTE has proposed that they be disbanded.

2.5.7 WG14/C Language [N748]

Keld summarised report WG15 N748 - new C standard was balloted and now at disposition of comments stage.

2.5.8 EWOS Liaison

This agenda item to be removed. EWOS no longer exists.

2.5.9 CEN TC304

No written report available. Issue of how to deal with Euro and dual currency in locales and POSIX OSs. CEN cultural registry standard is now being balloted in JTC1. It includes a POSIX locale registry.

Action item on European member bodies (Denmark, Netherlands, and UK) and the Open Group Liaison to identify where in 9945-1 and/or 9945-2 changes may need to be made to accommodate the Euro currency.

2.5.10 X/Open (Category C)

No report. Rename this agenda item to refer to The Open Group.

2.6 Editors Reports: [e1091, e1092, e1098, e1099, e1101]

Don Folland - (email SC22WG15.1091) No requests for interpretations; has to track down original source for document.

Jim Oblinger - Profiles .10 and .13; .10 published, no requests for interpretations, difficulty in obtaining source; .13 in final IEEE ballot

Jay Ashford - (email SC22WG15.1092) 15068-2 (1387.2) all changes incorporated for publication as an IS, to be posted in PDF format.

Ted Baker - (email SC22WG15.1099) Reaffirmation ballot for .9 and .5; .5 is being integrated with .5b. Document to be fast tracked. Resolution required. .5g, .21 and X modular toolkit projects do not have equivalent ISO projects.

Shane McCarron - (email SC22WG15.1101) IEEE version submitted to IEEE for publication and to ISO for CD registration.

2.7 Defect Reports/Interpretations & Corrigenda [e1107, e1109, e1110, e1111]

IEEE Interpretations have been repackaged as Records of Response for ballot by SC22. One more to come once some problems/issues with the document are resolved. (Unexplained missing number.)

3.0 Specific actions for this meeting

3.1 Online WG15 Operations (e1084)

JTC1 is moving completely to an online operation, as is SC22. Therefore we need to as well. However, there are problems to be resolved with doing so. We need to maintain sequential document numbering.

Action item on the Convener to solve this problem, member bodies to research the issues and problems involved and potential solutions that could be implemented.

3.2 Convener Job Description (e 1082)

Reviewed email SC22WG15.1082. Suggested additions - time required to do the job, costs involved. Danish standards may be willing to take on the paper distribution.

4.0 Actions Arising from Reports

4.1 Action related to issues


4.2 Responses to JTC1 or SC22 action


4.3 Proposals related to IEEE PASC activities &/or Priorities

Jim Isaak presented an overview of the Internet Practices Study Group within the IEEE and how or where it might fit in the international standards community.

4.4 Liaison statements & actions related thereto


4.5 Assignments & actions related to technical editor reports

Question of amendments to base documents that have since been re-published. How are amendments numbered? IEEE vs. ISO amendment numbers.

Action item on U.S. to put ISO amendment numbers (when assigned) on IEEE documents.

4.6 Defect Reports/Interpretations & Corrigenda

Andrew Josey has created a new defect report form that has been incorporated into the IEEE interpretations request process. The question was raised as to whether this meets the ISO defect report process, and whether the ISO defect report process itself even works in the case of POSIX standards. JTC1 requires working groups to review and approve the record of response to each defect report request. In this case the IEEE interpretations request process is being used in place of the ISO process and the two may need to be better integrated so that a request made to either gets processed through both and meets all the requirements of both. In particular ISO requires that the ISO document number be used. However the IEEE interpretation process may begin even before a document becomes an international standard.

Action item on the U.S. and the Open Group on how this may best be accomplished.

9945-2 defect reports have one number with no record of response. This needs to be corrected before they can be processed through SC22 for ballot. This will bring us up to date to last June. WG15 members are welcome to participate in the IEEE interpretations process if they require early access, otherwise they will likely be batched and forwarded to WG15 on a periodic basis. In fact, to avoid discrepancies in the IEEE and WG15 responses it would be desirable if WG15 members did participate in the process as early as possible.

5.0 Project Activities - registration, balloting, content [WG15 SD11, SD 4]
Recommendations for registration, assignment of DoC generation, divisions of work/NP's

5.1 9945-0 LIS System Interface System Interface LIS {1372}

Draft in progress, Keld Simonsen is technical editor. A working draft is expected for the next meeting. 9945-0 is not an appropriate number and it should be renumbered 9945-3.

5.2 9945-2 Shell & Utilities

5.2.1 22.41 additional utilities {2b} PDAM2:

A proposed disposition of comments has been received from the project editor (Stephe Walli) via email and is in WG15 N754. Member bodies should review and comment on this document to the project editor as soon as possible so that these comments can be taken into account when the editing meeting is held. The project editor is expected to hold the editing meeting via teleconference or email in the very near future. See also comments under 9705-10.

5.2.2 22.43 Security Amendment {2c/6} PDAM3:

Casey Schaufler has been asked to provide a status report on the disposition of comments.

Action item on the U.S. to find out what the results were of the recirculation.

Action item on the Project Editor Casey Schaufler to produce the disposition of comments.

5.3 15068 Administered Systems

5.3.1 (- ) Sys Administration overview {1387.1/7+}

IEEE has withdrawn this project and we have an action item with respect to doing this work elsewhere.

5.3.2 (-2) Software Administration {1387.2/7.2} e1092

This has now been approved as IS 15068-2. The agenda item may now be removed until this standard comes up for its five-year review. Email SC22WG15.1092 refers.

5.3.3 (-3) User Administration {1387.3/7.3} DIS

In DIS ballot, to complete in February 1998.

5.3.4 (-4) Print Administration {1387.4/7.1} CD:

CD registration was approved in December 1996 (IEEE Draft 8, SC22 N2211) and disposition of comments is in SC22 N2544.

Action item on the U.S. to identify which draft will be submitted for CD ballot and when it might be received.

5.4 9945-1 C Language Bindings

5.4.1 22.39 Extensions to base {1a} PDAM Reg: (PDAM5)

PDAM registration approved in December 1996 and disposition of comments is required. Draft 13 is expected to be submitted for final PDAM ballot.

Action item on Project Editor Stephe Walli to complete disposition of comments.

5.4.2 22.21.40 Extensions to real time (additional real time extensions) {1d/4b} PDAM reg: (PDAM8)

PDAM ballot approved in May 1997 (Draft 8), disposition of comments is required. Latest draft is draft 10. Change to agenda item title is required.

Action item on Project Editor Stephe Walli to complete disposition of comments.

5.4.3 22.42 Security Amendment {1e/6} CD done (PDAM3)

Refer to .2c - identical status.

5.4.4 Protocol Ind. Interface {1g/12} PDAM bal: (PDAM4)

Awaiting DAM ballot, Draft 6.6, closing Feb/Mar 1998.

5.4.5 Adv Real Time Ext. {1j} (PDAM7)

Registration ballot closed in March, no disposition document required, awaiting submission by the U.S. of a draft for PDAM ballot.

Action item on the U.S. to submit a draft and identify whether or not it is being submitted for Final PDAM ballot.

5.5 14519 Ada Language Bindings

5.5.1 Ada Real Time Extensions {5b} for fasttrack

This has been merged into the base document and is being fast tracked as a revision to IS 14519. for fasttrack

Yet more real time {.5c}

Either the U.S. should circulate a draft in WG15 and SC22 in preparation for fast tracking an amendment or we should request a NP to move this through the five-step process. There are also additional Ada amendments in process within the IEEE.

Action item on the U.S. for a recommendation on how to progress the various Ada work items.

5.6 14252 Guide to POSIX OSE
22.38 TR14252 Guide to POSIX OSE {0} [e1091] TR 1996 done

This has been approved and published and may now be removed from the agenda. (Is anyone, other than Fritz Shultz, actually using this document?)

5.7 13210, 14515-x Test Methods

5.7.1 22.37 CD13210 Test Methods {2003R} revision

Final CD ballot closed October 12, results are in SC22 N2595, a (trivial) disposition of comments is required. Draft 8 is the current draft. Action on the U.S. to forward the appropriate draft, when available, to the SC22 secretariat for DIS ballot.

5.7.2 14515-1 Test Methods for 9945-1 - 1990 ...1.01 Test methods for 1990 component {2003.1} Done 96

Approved IS 14515-1, awaiting publication. ...1.02 Test methods for real time Ext. {2003.1b} PDAM Reg:

14515-1 PDAM1, Draft 5 approved for PDAM registration, awaiting PDAM ballot. Action item on the Convener to contact SC22 and request that the PDAM ballot on Draft 5 be cancelled if it has not already gone out as Draft 6 is imminent.

5.7.3 14515-2 Test Methods for 9945-2 {2003.2} CD bal:

IEEE Standard 2003.2-1996 currently in DIS ballot.

5.8 Guide for National Profiles & Locales

14766 Guide for National Profiles & National Locales [N746]

The Project Editor (Keld Simonsen) has received the document from Japan and applied additional comments received. Guidelines on 10646 have been added as an annex, and the document has been reformatted, edited, and updated. The result is WG15 N746.

At the first meeting in Nashua only five people attended. Very few were interested in developing this document further in PASC and the WG15 ad-hoc meeting to be held tomorrow with decide whether to proceed in PASC or in WG15. A WG15 project has been approved and the document needs to be developed there if not in IEEE PASC. Profiles / guidelines are already available from The Open Group. There is not a lot of industry interest but national bodies are or should be interested, as is CEN. It would have been nice to have discussed this document with SGFS, however they no longer exist. This guide will not be an ISP within the terms of TR10000, which JTC1 now maintains.

5.9 OSE Profiles

15287-1 Supercomputing Profile [N737]

IEEE Standard 1003.10-1995 is being distributed to SC22 and WG15 for review and comment. Awaiting explanatory report before sending it for concurrent PDISP registration and Final PDISP ballot.

15287-2 Real Time Profile

P1003.13 Draft 7 distributed for review and comment (WG15 N624). Draft 9 is the current draft. It should now be sent to SC22 for concurrent PDISP registration and Final PDISP ballot.

Action item on the U.S. to forward draft 8 of P1003.13 to SC22 for review and comment and PDISP registration. Draft 9 will later be submitted for Final PDISP ballot.

Action item on the U.S. to investigate and report on the status of .18 and to make a recommendation on a possible division of work.

6.0 New Business

6.1 N743 - SIG_IGN discussion

Action item on the U.S. Member Body to forward WG15 N743 to the U.S. Development Body for review and comment and to respond not later than the next meeting.

6.2 N751, N752 -- Unix 98 Utilities and NP for additional Utilities

These documents were submitted in response to action items calling for member bodies to identify those things in the Single Unix Specification and to identify additional utilities to be standardised. WG15 N751 results from Denmark analysis of differences between Unix '98 and 9945-2 that need to be resolved. Some of these may be covered by .2b. Denmark would like to see the non-legacy missing utilities as a minimum. However, within PASC the ballot resolution process has stalled on i18n issues because they lack the necessary expertise to resolve the comments and still achieve ballot consensus. There is a proposal to split the PAR and deal with the i18n related items in a new PAR.

.2b has been held up too long - 5 years and cannot close because of this expertise issue. The IEEE PASC PAR process requires a draft PAR 45 days prior to the meeting at which it is considered for approval. To ensure the greatest chance of success WG15 N751 and WG15 N752 should be split into multiple small manageable pieces for PAR approval.

6.3 PASC / WG15 Future

Do we have one? US responded to this in AI report. Presented to PASC SEC and debated in US TAG. Industry participants are concerned about the continued evolution and growth of the base standard - "POSIX Classic". There is a desire to stabilize that work so that continued development of existing products does not need to continue unabated. Maintenance is necessary but new work should be kept as optional extensions. An ad-hoc group has been formed to define what POSIX is and what should now be stabilized as core POSIX and what is merely related. Another ad-hoc was assigned the job of taking five samples from the current agenda and to make recommendations on how this work might be transferred to TOG for continued maintenance. These groups are to report back in January. This may have a significant effect on WG15 but we don't know yet what that will be.

In JTC1 there is an emphasis on increased efficiency via the fast track process and other mechanisms. How can we be responsive to both of these requirements?

Denmark feels that work should go forward as it has in the past with amendments to existing base standards. The alternative is to have separate standards for these "extensions". Note: corrections to existing standards should continue to be processed as amendments. This is not in dispute and for example a large portion of .2b falls into this category.

Some efforts may need to be spun off into separate entities and stand on their own. A few of these may be driven by the demands of certain large buyers and may survive for that reason.

A freewheeling discussion ensued including the question of applications conformance.

How may WG15 participants monitor, provide input to, or have impact on the discussions now taking place in PASC?

Resolution required for a WG15 ad-hoc meeting in FL in conjunction with PASC.

7.0 Review/approval

7.1 Resolutions - Drafting Committee

7.2 Action Items - Secretary

7.2 Issues List - Vice Chair

Updated issues list will be available in SD-3. No issues were closed and no new issues have been added.

8.0 Closing Process

8.1 Future meeting considerations

Target in Conjunction with other meetings (SC22, TOG, PASC)
Meeting confirmation 1 year in advance - Request for invitations:
Winter 1998 January 11-12, 1998, Fort Lauderdale, FL WG15 ad-hoc in conjunction with IEEE PASC
Spring 1998 April 24-25, 1998, Dallas, TX WG15 plenary in conjunction with IEEE PASC
Seeking Invitations
Summer 1998 August 1998, Denmark, WG15 ad-hoc in conjunction with SC22 (tentative)
Winter 1999 January 1999, Japan, WG15 plenary

8.2 Document Number assignment

N735r3 Agenda for Oct. 97 WG15 Meeting
N738 UK Action Item Report
N739 Japan Action Item Report
N740 Netherlands Action Item Report
N741 U.S. Action Item Report
N742 Canadian Action Item Report
N743 SIG_IGN Inheritance
N744 Convener Action Item Report
N745 Denmark Action Item Report
N746 WD 14766 Guidelines for POSIX National Profile and National Locale
N747 WG20 Liaison Report
N748 WG14 Liaison Report
N749 WG22 Liaison Report
N750 Document List
N751 UNIX 98 utilities missing in POSIX-2 (as per Open Group's web)
N752 NP for POSIX additional utilities
N753 POSIX Profiles Project Editor Report
N754 Proposed Disposition of Comments for PDAM2 to ISO 9945-2 (.2b)
N755 Proposed Disposition of Comments for PDAM8 to ISO 9945-1 (.1d)
N756r Minutes for Oct. 97 WG15 Meeting
N757 Agenda for April 24-25, 1998 WG15 plenary meeting
SD4 WG15 Project List

8.3 Selection of Vice Chair, Secretary for next meeting

The U.S. will provide the Chair and secretary for the April 1998 10th anniversary meeting.

8.4 Agenda for next meeting

The provisional agenda is available in WG15 N757.

8.5 Thanks to host

Thanks were extended to Nav Canada, Revenue Canada, and the Standards Council of Canada for hosting the meeting and to the chair, secretary and drafting committee for their work. The chair also extended thanks to all the participants for attending and to Nav Canada and Revenue Canada for making the job of host so easy.

9. Adjournment

The meeting adjourned on Wednesday, October 22, 1997.